In depth look at Wabisuke.

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NinjainSpandex

Member


Because of a certain reason the weight of swords have been discussed, and it has been questioned how shinigami can swing and hold such heavy weapons.
Example: Renji's bankai, or Ikkaku's bankai​

So, it was brought to light that a shinigamis own sword, no matter what shape it takes is still a part of that shinigami, and therefore weighs next to nothing.

SJ: How can Ichigo swing a sword that looks heavier than he is? Is he secretly working out at home?
KT: Well, no. To begin with, a zanpaku-tou isn't something you'd swing with your muscles. Ichigo's zanpaku-tou comes from inside him, so he wouldn't find it heavy. If Ichigo tried to wield Renji's zanpaku-tou, Zabimaru, he'd find it heavy.
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Now we take a look at Kira's shikai - Wabisuke

Wabisuke doubles the weight of any object it strikes. The ability can affect both inanimate objects and living beings, and is cumulative. For example, the first strike on an opponent wielding a 10 lb sword doubles the opposing sword's weight to 20 lbs. If Izuru strikes the sword a second time, the weight of the sword doubles to 40 lbs. Izuru can continue doubling the weight of his opponent's sword indefinitely. After about eight or nine strikes, most opponents would be unable to lift their swords and are brought down to their knees by the weight of their own weapon. Though the potential of this ability is limitless....etc.
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However, it is stated that a zanpakuto is not lifted or swung with muscles.
And so the contradiction​

Either A: Wabisuke cuts the spiritual connection b/w a shinigami and a zanpakuto, enabling the weight of the zanpakuto to affect said shinigami.

or B: There is a serious contradiction.

or option C: something I haven't thought of(post it)
 
NinjainSpandex said:


Because of a certain reason the weight of swords have been discussed, and it has been questioned how shinigami can swing and hold such heavy weapons.
Example: Renji's bankai, or Ikkaku's bankai​

So, it was brought to light that a shinigamis own sword, no matter what shape it takes is still a part of that shinigami, and therefore weighs next to nothing.



Now we take a look at Kira's shikai - Wabisuke



However, it is stated that a zanpakuto is not lifted or swung with muscles.
And so the contradiction​

Either A: Wabisuke cuts the spiritual connection b/w a shinigami and a zanpakuto, enabling the weight of the zanpakuto to affect said shinigami.

or B: There is a serious contradiction.

or option C: something I haven't thought of(post it)
Click to expand...

Nice picture for visual confirmation. It looks like he's holding his deformed, bent penis.

Just kidding, nice thread, worth the read.
 
Imagine yourself to be a shapeshifter and the zanpakutou is one of your arm. You can shapeshift your arm into any size and shape you want but it's still your arm so it weighs just as much as your normal arm. In comes Wabisuke and touches your arm, suddenly your arm feels like it's carrying a 100 pound dumb bell.

That's my take on it.
 
A zanpaktou is an extension of a shinigami himself. When Kubo said that a zanpaktou weighs nothing, I take it to mean that it weighs the normal weight of a katana, and nothing else. To Ichigo, his shikai probably weighs the same as a normal unreleased sword. The same goes with Renji's shikai. As long as you are adequately trained in using it, you will be able to manage control of it because it is an extension of yourself. Its not that it weighs nothing, but it because it is part of you, you should be able to control it just like you control your hands and legs. We dont say our hands and legs are heavy because it is part of us and we were designed to use it.......but the fact is, it does weight a certain amount

When dealing with Bankai, its a different story. Bankai seems to require a far greater cooperation of the zanpaktou consciousness in order to accurately wield it. Due to its large size, the user must be able to learn to control it. Ikkaku could not go bankai, or could not use it to its full potential until his zanpaktou agreed. I think the zanpaktou, in most cases moves itself according to the users wishes. Renji just holds the hilt of his sword and his bankai does a shitload of things. Same with Ikkaku, he jumps in the air with it as if it is nothing. It is not he who is moving it, but his zanpaktou is moving according to his wishes. It is a sentient being after all.

Kira's wabisku makes things heavier than they are supposed to be. Right now, I don't feel any weight on my fingers as I type this, but if my fingers doubled or tripled in weight, I would not be able to move them as good. If Kira hit a single petal of Byakua's bankai, or shikai, it would probably fall to the ground. Byakuya is not using his muscles to move it, but Senbonzakura is moving itself, and because of Wabisku, it would not be able to do so anymore

Thats how I see it
 
HugeGuy said:
Imagine yourself to be a shapeshifter and the zanpakutou is one of your arm. You can shapeshift your arm into any size and shape you want but it's still your arm so it weighs just as much as your normal arm. In comes Wabisuke and touches your arm, suddenly your arm feels like it's carrying a 100 pound dumb bell.

That's my take on it.
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This is how I've always seen it to be.
 
A zanpakutoou could weigh 100 tons but since it is part of the user's spirit, it feels like nothing to them. But it means that the user's maximum weight lifting limit is 100 tons.

Wabisuke doubles the weight per hit so 100 tons becomes 200 tons. Since the user can only lift up to 100 tons of his own zanpakutou, 200 tons is much more than he can handle.
 
The ability itself is quite limitless as far as it's general concept.

Regardless of said weapon/person, it will double to weight of what it touches.

Whether reiatsu has anything to do with this is anybody's guess (as Aizen was able to completely block Soi Fon's shikai ability due to reiatsu according to him).
 
I don't understand why whoever feels weighed down just use their bankai or switched back into its sealed form then switch back.
 
I actually never thought of this and it is definetely worth the read. I believe it is option A when Abirama Redder's wings got slashed he was uable to oe ad as you pointed out the zanpakuto's owner ca't really feel the wieght of his sword. This directs me to believe that instead of the actually object gettig heavier Kira makes the reitetsu particles more denser and heavier for the wielder.
 
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To agree with HG and Bathroom Mop, the quote the OP provides clearly shows that Kubo did not say the zanpakuto weighs nothing, but simply that the user doesn't find it heavy. So regardless of the size, the weapon would feel like the weight of a sword the shinigami trains with everyday.

In terms of how Wabisuke works, the answer is probably a modification of option A, in that no "cutting of spiritual connections" happens, it is simply affecting the weight the shinigami feels anyway, which is that of a normal katana. The incident with Rangiku is an interesting case though, since there with change in form, she no longer felt any weight. This probably related to the scenario BM describes where the zanpakuto is moving itself, the user doesn't feel any of that weight. Haineko, Senbonzakura and Unohana's swords all qualify.
 
blacklusterseph004 said:
The incident with Rangiku is an interesting case though, since there with change in form, she no longer felt any weight. This probably related to the scenario BM describes where the zanpakuto is moving itself, the user doesn't feel any of that weight. Haineko, Senbonzakura and Unohana's swords all qualify.
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While I agree with the theory about zanpakutous that moves themselves, I'm inclined to believe this has to be done on a case by case basis.

For example, Unohana's Minazuki is a large flying stingray. I find it hard that it can still fly after doubling it's weight, maybe it can't even move at all. However Haineko can still move rather freely because it's dust. I mean, what's doubling the weight of individual dust particles gonna accomplish? Senbonzakura is anyone's guess. It's much lighter than Minazuki but should be much heavier than Haineko. My guess is Byakuya can probably still move it but it will be more clumsy.
 
blacklusterseph004 said:
To agree with HG and Bathroom Mop, the quote the OP provides clearly shows that Kubo did not say the zanpakuto weighs nothing, but simply that the user doesn't find it heavy. So regardless of the size, the weapon would feel like the weight of a sword the shinigami trains with everyday.

In terms of how Wabisuke works, the answer is probably a modification of option A, in that no "cutting of spiritual connections" happens, it is simply affecting the weight the shinigami feels anyway, which is that of a normal katana. The incident with Rangiku is an interesting case though, since there with change in form, she no longer felt any weight. This probably related to the scenario BM describes where the zanpakuto is moving itself, the user doesn't feel any of that weight. Haineko, Senbonzakura and Unohana's swords all qualify.
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Pretty much this. Kubo never said that Zanpakutos weigh nothing. It just doesn't feel heavy to it's user. When it's eight gets doubled, it probably feel like double the weight of a normal katana.
 
NinjainSpandex said:


Because of a certain reason the weight of swords have been discussed, and it has been questioned how shinigami can swing and hold such heavy weapons.
Example: Renji's bankai, or Ikkaku's bankai​

So, it was brought to light that a shinigamis own sword, no matter what shape it takes is still a part of that shinigami, and therefore weighs next to nothing.



Now we take a look at Kira's shikai - Wabisuke



However, it is stated that a zanpakuto is not lifted or swung with muscles.
And so the contradiction​

Either A: Wabisuke cuts the spiritual connection b/w a shinigami and a zanpakuto, enabling the weight of the zanpakuto to affect said shinigami.

or B: There is a serious contradiction.

or option C: something I haven't thought of(post it)
Click to expand...

I suppose there might also be mental weight as an option for Zanpakutos

or maybe all zanpakuto's feel like they weight about 0,8 kg no matter there shape and size as was the weight Kira gave for matsumotos zanpakuto
 
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