[Ted_Sturges]

I've heard several answers to this question over the years, from the placement of "Eden beach" bunker, to the "P" shape to the green.  Yet I seem to find exceptions to each description I've heard.  Does anyone know the answer to this question?  George B.?

[TEPaul]

      I'd also like to know the deifinition and playability of the "Eden" as well as the "Biarittz". I saw mention on this site that   Fisher's Island's 5th is a Biarittz and the 11th is an Eden. I know the course pretty well, but why are they called that and what are their distinctive features and playability?       I also call the 1st at Philadelphia C.C. and the 12th at PVGC a completely delayed dogleg. Is that technically true or are the greens just oriented perpendicular to the line of the fairway at the end of the fairway?

[George_Bahto]

Ted: What makes an Eden Holes is that is is based on the 11th at St. Andrews often very loosely). Basic criterias: usually a slightly  teardrop-shaped green with the "pointed" part facing the tee-box.  In the strictest sense it is guarded by a bunker called "Hill" on the left, a replication of "Starth's" bunker off center in front .... this should be a pot bunker but often is not.  Strath's bunker sometimes has evolved into just a mundane bunker along the right side of the green.  Yes there should be a bunker behind the green representing the beach of the Eden River behind the 11th St. Andrews.  Another bunker called "Shelly" or "Cockleshell" is short right of the green - this is a large bunker and is in the rough shape of a cockleshell.By the way "Hill" bunker is called that because it creates a rised area in the putting surface.The green should be tilted pretty severely from reat to front and balls above the hole at St. Andrews often roll off the front of the green and are "funneled" into the Strath pot bunker.Most architects use this strategy on their courses but they love to modify it hoping no one will notice they have copied the great "Eden"

[Tom_Doak]

That's the definition, all right, but I don't think many of Seth Raynor's "Eden" holes really got it right -- the right-center pot bunker isn't nearly as frightening as it needs to be.Nor do I really think the fourth at Augusta is a great example, although Dr. MacKenzie and Bobby Jones were explicit in trying to capture its terrors.The best example I know is the 18th at Garden City Golf Club, courtesy of Walter Travis.  The bunkers left and right put the fear of God in you, and that's what the Eden is about.

[George_Bahto]

TEPaul:   The Biarritz:  came from a hole C. B. Macdonald saw in its original form on the Biarritz la Phare course built by Willie Dunn (1888). The original hole did not last long - too hard for the times. They built a hotel on the cliff in about 3 years and moved the tee changing the angle of play and the length of the hole twice (it finally ended up 110 yds - it was originally 220 yards).  I have a color photo of an oil painting of the original hole painted a year or so after the course was built.  The oil recently sold in Europe for over $50,000.It was the 3rd hole and was called the "Chasm" - played from an 80' cliff across the Bay of Biscay to a  green perched on a  50' cliff on the other side.Now you can see how the 16th Cypress Point is the original Raynor version of Biarritz on that most wonderful course.I helped by good friend Charlie Ferguson identify the holes at Fishers Island when he was writing their club history a few years ago.  Charlie is a wonderful commercial artist - he did the murals in the clubhouse and  his paintings of some of the golf holes at F/I are wonderful.  He graciously did three watercolors for my book.Don't miss that F/I Biarritz to the right !!!

[George_Bahto]

Tom:  You are so right - Raynor and Banks really chickened out on the Eden holes - Macdonald did too. Banks never even put in a pot bunker - just used an ordinary strip bunker on the right side. There isn't one that I have ever seen that has anything you could call a "severe" front to back slope.  Although the hole that crosses the approach road (can't remember the #) at North Shore CC (NY) has a pretty good right rear section. I think you should build a really tough one so we can have one in this country to play on.

[Ran Morrissett]

The Eden is also supposed to place the fear of god in you if you over the green because of the 1. back to front slope of the green but also 2. because you don't know/can't see what is indeed over the green. The 11th at Fishers is stronger on this second point than the 13th at the National, and thus I prefer it. George, you should too. Indeed, the 11th at Fishers is the only Eden I am familar with where the green acts as the horizon in a similar fashion to the original at St. Andrews.Unlike the Redan, the orginal Eden is still the very best.

[TEPaul]

George:       The cant of the green on the Eden slopes severely from the rear towards the front, right? I was confused by your second post discription. Does it also filter balls off the front of the green to one side or the other into a bunker?         Have you ever seen the 6th hole at the Misquamicut G.C. in Watch Hill (Westerley) R.I. The course is a Ross redesign of maybe a Willie Park (?) original

[Ted_Sturges]

Thanks to all for the education!

[George_Bahto]

TEPaul:  The Eden green at St Andrews is so severe that is not uncommon when balls are putted from the rear that they often go off the green and are captured in the sloped surround of the pot bunker and roll into it.  Hope that helps.Ran: I love that F/I Eden - you're right is has so very much going for it. Unfortunately, I'm just a National "junkie" and suffer from some strange affliction that was heaped on me by that old fart, Charlie Macdonald.By the way, you will sometimes feel his ghost roaming around the holes at NGLA, especially near dust.  He seems to be  laughing (in his case, gloating) as we try, often in vein, to unravel his confounding strategies.

[TEPaul]

George Bahto:     Have you ever seen the Misquamicut G.C., Watch Hill (Westerly) R.I?

[George_Bahto]

TEPaul: sorry I didn't answer the question earlier - no I have not bee thereTll me about it

[TEPaul]

George:         The Misquamicut G.C. is really starting to intrigue me. Talk about a course they wouldn't or couldn't build today. I call it "antique unique". Attribution in Cornish and Whitten is just (R) Ross-that's all. Obviously that is because noone knows. The pro thinks it was a  little Willie Park designed playing area. They have a carelessly framed little drawing on the wall in the locker room that I think is only some yardages, looks like mostly par 3s, maybe some stretched out a little. What is there now is Donald Ross and it is really old world in design. Look at the post of "best opening holes" here and the comments of Kye Goalby followed by mine for some hole descriptions. Par 69. I played in the member-guest this year-had never been there before. This course and the whole little town of Watch Hill is without a doubt the most old-fashioned WASP enclave on the face of the earth. It tops W.C. Fields advice about Philadelphia by a mile. "If the world comes to an end go to Watch Hill-it's fifty years behind times! Doesn't Brad Klein come from New England? I'd ask him but I don't know how to get in touch.

[John Morrissett]

Ted--Excellent post.  All the other Macdonald/Raynor short holes are easy to identify, so I usually can only tell which is the Eden by process of elimination!Ran is correct -- no one will ever match the original (11 at St. Andrews).The 11th at FI is my favorite "copy," but I have trouble calling that an Eden.  The 13th at NGLA is the most accurate version (with the bunkering and back-to-front pitch of the green), and that hole goes up in my eyes each round there.  I just wish they would recapture the part of the green to the right.  When Ran and I played there there was a maintenance worker in the "Strath" bunker we couldn't see until we were walking to the green!

[Ted_Sturges]

John,What are your top 4 or 5 Raynor/MacDonald Eden holes.  Please share your thoughts.

[Doak's 2 cents]

Aside from National, Fishers Island, and the third at Mid Ocean [mostly for its setting], the one Raynor "Eden" which sticks out is the 3rd at Fox Chapel in Pittsburgh.The "Short" 3rd at Morris County, New Jersey,  is also quite good -- the bowl inside the green looks like one of those gravity demonstrations at a science museum, and the left half of the green is lower than the right.

[Tom_Doak]

By the way, the 13th hole at Beechtree is my only real copy of the Eden.  The 5th at Quail Crossing has similar greenside bunkering, but it's all carry, whether to the left or right. The 15th hole at High Pointe was also designed around the Eden -- it's a drop shot, but if you didn't want to risk guessing the distance and the wind, it was designed so you could steer the ball into the left-half opening of the green.  [And there is also a pronounced back-to-front tilt on the green.]  Nevertheless, the only people I've ever seen pull that shot off were me and Dianna.

[John Morrissett]

Ted--Other than 11 at FI and 13 at NGLA, I can't say any of them really stand out.Tom--I'm glad you've played Morris County -- it's quite good.  The 3rd is neat; probably my second favorite Short hole (behind 6 at NGLA).  What did you think about the 13th?  It's my favorite mirror-image Redan.

[Ted_Sturges]

Tom and others,Yes, I really enjoyed the Eden hole at Fox Chapel (over the pond, with a hidden Eden Beach).What about the Eden hole at Camargo?  Isn't it the 1st one shot hole there?  How does it compare to other Raynor Edens?

[A_Clay_Man]

Interesting definitions here.

[Jim Sweeney]

Ted:

The third at Camargo is its "Eden." However, its main Eden-like attribute is the beach bunker which, I believe, was one of the bunkers restored by Mr. Doak. Beyond that, one would agree, in this case, with Doak's comment that not very many Raynor/Mcdonald Edens are very true to the origional.

That said, I question weather they were really trying to be completely faithful to the prototypes of their holes. Certainly they wanted to bring the general characteristics of these holes into their work, but were constrained by the limitations imposed by the site. Could there ever be an exact replica of the Eden or any hole, for that matter?

Perhaps another thread topic is apparent here.

[Keith Durrant]

To help the discussions, this is a diagram of the hole. A couple of questions:

- On the St Andrews website the hole is called "High" not Eden - who coined the name Eden?

- Why is it such as great hole?

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Can a hole like Eden really be recreated in the modern architectural era?

Although the shape and look can be rendered, does the loss of slope on the putting surface, due to higher green speeds,  change the re-creation?

[CHrisB]

Here's another thread from last week about the Eden, with several good posts:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=8894

[Mike Hendren]

Question:  How far right is the Eden typically pinned?  I have only played it left of Strath.

Mike

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